Where has the urban rail thread gone?
So heah, Länsimetro opened today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zGvhYRgBBE
They had the student orchestra to delight the early morning visitors, of whom there wandered a reasonable number, everyone thinking they'd be almost alone. Later the day very small coffee, cake slice, bag and mug ceremony. As it's saturday, some probably use the new instrument for bar crawl right away.
So yeah, urban rail - the armchair foamer's rail. Always things happening.
Nice. No platform screen doors.
My little home town's tramway project is trundling along, decision may or may not be made later this year. The press claims they would, but I don't believe it would proceed like that. A master plan has been made, but the project plan hasn't, and Tampere (the other city with tramway currently under construction) did so only after the project plan was made as well, and that would be another year or two at least.
They are right in the sense that the big policy decision happesn when the project plan gets go-ahead, in Helsinki I don't recall any big profile transit project in recent histry which would not have been approved at project plan stage. How even in this sort of city transforming decision it's more sensitive to the current council party affiliations. Further more, if I understand it right, at this level it goes through the cabinet and various delegations, but at the final decision the whole council votes.
Hype is clearly kindling though. This new Artic car on its way to Helsinki detoured here, even dressed in "Föli" livery in Rata 2018 ("Track 2018") fair, which was mainly a professional occasion for various rail operators in the nation, so I didn't go even if there was an open evening for foamers to see the shiny trainz.
Shiiiieeeet, man, I wanted to create such thread too:)
…although I was a bit worried no one would contribute to a thread with my nickname atop just expecting me to singlehandedly dump all the content. That's exactly what happened to my now perished Metro general thread. Thanks for nothing guys…
Beautiful image! Captures the russian outer-urban tramway feeling so well.
Well apart from that Dallas heritage tram driver, all we have is freight train oggling Yankies.
I haven't been on the moodz to ramble about any foreign or near local system. God bless the slowness of this board. Tampere is progressing nicely, forst stage should open in 2020. Copen hagen decided on it's first right light rail, Århus first stage is just opening, there's construstion in Odens and Lund. Also many things possible in Stockholm in near future.
Pic, I believe, is of a CAF SRV-I of the Sacramento RT in California.
One of the snow-clearing trams in action. This is the older one.>>5344
That's unfortunate. Have they figured that the busway would be so cheap with the same percentage of dedicated infrastructure though?
This is not all horrible though. For me as one of the Moscow's amateur transportation photographers this is just a treasury of mind-blowing snowy landscapes. And a unique opportunity to see every rail snow-clearing vehicle in action. I will also cover this soon in the new RZD thread.
Yes, I know I announced to create one like couple of week ago, sorry. I will have that fixed soon:)
Well "the same level of dedicated infrastructure" all in option wuold cost like 60% of all in tram option's price, though a pessimist would say that as things are now, should we go with this "superbus", it would get so boggled down and the painful compromises with automobile traffic at grade would not be made in favor with this "superbus" and the rail solution's primary appeal really is that committing to rail would ensure that a proper transit corridor was constructed - a permanent way even.
The study ended up recommending superbus on basis that cheaper cost per line would allow faster expansion. The amortization period of rail was like 30 years and only after that the positives start to dominate. I think there was even a claim that before that no new expansion would be possible.
It is telling however that when Tampere studied this same thing, they found the superbuses more expensive to operate in short term as well. I should say that this Turku-study was ordered by the previous council which was said to have been significantly less committed to tram compared to the current council. In Tampere, the case was built a bit differently also, they had superbus option ruled out first and at the final decision stage there was only build tram - don't build anything. Municipal real politics in action…
So it is a bit hard to say how things will turn. At summer I will know, but if I had to guess now, the odds would be 30 % superbus, 60 % more studies, 10 % tram.
What I am fairly sure is that the decision will not be made this summer unless it's superbus, that's what I mean with the above statement: if the tram option hangs along, then there will be so much political bikeshedding on the exact details.
Haven't really exited the house, so stolen pixels is all I have. The snowfall hasn't been newsworthy in weeks.
Nice pics, of articulated Moscow trams. So they've finally also transitioning from multiple unit operation into single articulated units?>>5288>>5305
The best cars are made in Japan Y/N?
When they tried a BRT-style concept in my old hometown:
- car drivers ignored the resited stop lines and got swiped by the back half of the artic;
- one fairly busy part of the city centre became very difficult to reach; and
- on the repurposed central stretch, pedestrians kept getting killed because they were looking the wrong way.
After more or less rebuilding the street network for it, the scheme was canned after only six years.
>>5357> So they've finally also transitioning from multiple unit operation into single articulated units?
Well if you have read at least the title of this my (quite explanatory mind you) post >>5269
the answer is pretty obvious.
Also it is pretty easy to falsely guess that if you don't have any responses to your post no one have read it but I didn't realize it can be actually true… This is pretty upsetting.
> stolen pixels
I also post here mostly stolen ones some of them are my own but of course I have no intention to point out which of them
as I keep repeating (just to make sure it's all fair). But since I'm here incognito and use them purely for illustration I presume I don't mess with any copyrights.
Sorry man, my reading comprehension could have been better. As that post came, I registered it only on the level of some new artics in Moscow, not really paying attention to the scale. So paying attention now, if I look the references correctly, there are about 800 cars total, 200ish articulated low floor and this would add 300 more, nice. Makes a healthy rolling stock age structure.
Also, turning bogies, nice. It's also a bit eyebrown raising that these are serviced by the manufacturer, given the size of the Moscow network. I think Helsinki is servicing its new trams still in-house.
Are Russian / eastern cities totelly phasing out this multiple unit operation style too, or are there holdouts that plan to stick with individual twin bogie cars to the foreseeable future?
If I'd hazard a guess, this style of construction doesn't give the benefits of simplicity with low floor added, but what do I know.
>>5369> 200ish articulated low floor and this would add 300 more, nice
Nope, again you didn't pay much attention:) It's the order of 300 Vitaz-Ms total of which for now about 130 are produced with 170 or so to go. With the 70 PESA Foxtrots this will be a total of 370 articulated trams, 70 Polish ones and 300 Russian ones.
Although 99% that after 2019 there will be another order for the PK Transportnye Sistemy, the creator of Vityaz series, to supply another two depots, but it is unclear yet which trams it would be. It is likely there will be two parts, one with single-unit low-floors (71-911 aka CityStar) and part with Vityaz-M.
Yes, single-units, because I don't have an idea why do you hate them so much. Just ride around Moscow route 9 and see how much nonsense is created by the presence of these 30-meter monsters on the route where each tram very rarely see more than 40 passengers at once. Vityaz-M has a max. capacity of 265 mind you. And there is enough of waiting time to raise the intervals even higher.
So they are definitely still efficient for some routes and even more efficient for smaller systems as you can always run them single and if you need, couple them together.
And as for other systems in Russia, this Moscow's purchase is the feast for them all! Seriously, as older cars are replaced, Moscow GIVES THEM AWAY for free (without shipping) and as far as I know there is already a queue for them. Now, they might be obsolete for Moscow but they are still decent workhorses <15 years old (pic related on the left) pretty suitable for smaller systems some of which still run mostly cars designed in 70-s.
So essentially the whole Russia is going to benefit from that Moscow's purchase.
> It's also a bit eyebrown raising that these are serviced by the manufacturer
What could be even POSSIBLY wrong with the most efficient way of servicing the rolling stock? It's not the manufacturer itself of course but rather their affiliated (branch?) firm ElectroTransServis (which is based in every Moscow depot using their trams) and is constantly in direct contact with them and with the operator. I've seen these guys at work, it takes them A MERE DAY sometimes to fix the problem with their tram and they are ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING even with informal passenger complaints instead of finding excuses, which is something almost unthinkable for Russian transportation.
So yes, it would be a total nonsense if they would've NOT purchased the lifetime warranty even despite it amounts for half of the total price.
P. S. Sorry for such amount of caps lock, I try to highlight the key statements and it is the easier way to DEW IT (SW reference here).
I like the colour of those. Catches the eye from a safety point of view but also looks stylish.
The KTM-19KT on the left is covered with some advertisement I believe but Vityaz-M indeed is in the unified Moscow Transport livery.
Although it is the least liked livery for them. There are also the white stripy one ( >>5269
) proposed by the manufacturer itself and white and blue MT livery specially for Vityaz-Ms proposed by Moscow Transport Department (pic related).
31001, 31042-31120 are stripy, 31002-31041 are blue, 31121- are white and blue. It is actually pretty strange galore given MT's tendency to force unified blue scheme for every ground vehicle, considering they've approved all three.
You'll be the judge which is better. I like all of them.
From a safety point of view Russia uses bright orange highly reflective stripes but this is on a railway rolling stock. There is nothing more catching the eye about Vityaz-M than its INCREDIBLY bright headlights which can be seen from like a mile away.
The caps are all right, I only ever post baked, anyway. (I know, it's not polite.)
I have to use google translate on the Russian wikipedia, but apparently they are made by Tver Carriage Works, which belongs to Transmashholding, which belongs to the state. So are the transit networks still more or less directly state run, "unitary enterprise" and all? Then it's makes even more sense even. I was thinking in terms of a municipal transit authority getting married to a private company for the 25-40+ years, in such an arrangement it's easy to get royally burned if the contracts aren't solid.
Sorry my ignorance, just again assuming everything is the same even if the Nordic fat state and morbidly obese municipality way of doing things is the outlier here. The trend is towards more outsourcing though, but Helsinki very traditionally maintains some buses and all its rail itself.
Nothing against multiple unit operation, just wondering where it has went. The last trailers here by the way went off use sometime in the 80s and there were only 15 multiple unit capable cars ever produced in the 50s, but never operated as such in revenue service. In the end they went with trailers and even "degenerated" on the way: originally they had automatic Scharfenberg style couplers, but as time went on, they gradually converted to manual air and electric hoses because the coupling needed a conductor to secure it anyway. The reason for abondaning the trailers was by the way abandoning the cashiers and converting to driver ticket selling. Coincidentally, from the start of this month, the drivers in Helsinki tram stopped selling tickets.
Heck yeah Suomi-Russian thread!>>5382
Don't know the numbers, but in my home city there are curves that don't even allow to have full sized left-side mirrors on the older cars (pic related, look at this little shit), so there's no reserve at all. But that system is screwed up anyway so nobody would let decent modern cars on it before reconstruction.>>5383
Forget the memetram, it's gone. RIP
>>5381>they are made by Tver Carriage Works, which belongs to Transmashholding
Again, mostly wrong:
the model is created by PK Transportnye Sistemy (PK TS) and produced in cooperation
with Transmashholding on its Tver carriage works - both companies are based in Russia.
Formally the contract is signed via Metrovagonmash, which is another TMH facility, so in its essence this is true, the TMH is playing the role of a safeguard in case something happens with PK TS. Ooooor TMH just wants to lay their hands on their business some time in the future:)
>Can you give typical Russian numbers btw?
You know, I think you do not quite get that 3-unit tram on rotational bogies should have smaller dynamical "footprint" than one long single-unit car. The main limiting factors are the bogies themselves and the frontal and read overhangs (which are mostly known for creating clearance issues). Anyway, the only loading gauge numbers I could find are minimum 1675 mm between closest rails of neighbouring tracks and no less than 2026 mm with poles inbetween (suddenly realized this is an extremely uncommon thing for Moscow tram, if any such stretches exist).
And yes, Vityaz has a minimum curve radius of 16 m which is, I take it, the absolute minimum for all modern trams.
Oh no, so much for my monopoly:) Anyway, greetings, comrade! Let's hope this site can handle more than one Russian… there is some history…
>my home city
<Insert Podzemniy Perehod Imeni Pushkina joke here> Anyway, I hope your authorities will have enough brains to order some used KTM-19* trams from Moscow as they are starting to give them away, basically for free. These are still superior to 70% of rolling stock in an average Russian tram city.
>curves that don't even allow to have full sized left-side mirrors
That's the overhang problem. Probably someone screwed the approach gauge so it is too tight to handle (relatively) modern trams with their huge overhangs.
The Moscow's Imeni Apakova depot is infamous for this problem. Turns out they can't handle anything newer than KTM-19 series AND (this is kinda ridiculous) they can't even fix this problem
because the depot is under state protection as a historical building so they can't rebuild anything. The latest rumors are that they are going to arrange new site on the south of the network which could handle new rolling stock.>>5382
This is what should be noted by our Finnish friend, despite not being able to handle even single-unit KTM-23s, Apakova somehow fits an ENORMOUS 8-axle KT3R Cobra tram (a joint experiment of Czech PARS NOVA and Moscow's Tram Repair Works). Here. Aint she pretty?
Privet. I've been visiting this place from time to time for a while though.>order some used KTM-19* trams from Moscow
They couldn't find money to transport the cars at first lol. Then they managed to get five 71-608КМ's. And one body of Stadler (actually BKM) 62103 to put it on top of the old chassis, picrel.
>>5402> They couldn't find money to transport the cars at first lol
Bet they still have the money for a bunch of SUVs with enough horsepower to haul the trailers with those cars all the way to Omsk :D>>5383
As for meme tram aka Russia One
, it is indeed done. And it was destined to eventually flop, apparently. Hailed as "the chosen one" which should bring balance to the Russian tram engineering it was in fact almost in every way inferior
to the humble Vityaz which was already a fully working prototype while the R1 was just a 1:1 model with no running gear. It is actually surprising that the widely known reason for closing the project is that they didn't came up with the running gear despite previously it is said that it should've been on the bogies of the 71-409 model.
…which are not rotating which is the main drawback for such massive tram.
And THIS is why it is quite surprising to hear it can do 16 meters. I mean, this design could've been fine for systems with only, like, 100-meter curves and smoother, but 16 meters with non-rotating bogies and such massive units?
Well maybe they decided to rethink this tram for rotating bogies and failed. Anyway, it's demise also was very strange as for about two or three years there were no word of the project except some officials one said that "it is too expensive to even try to sell it within Russia so we will assemble those outside of Russia for ONLY foreign customers". If it sounds gibberish that's because it is. Whoever said this, this guy is terrible in excuses.
Oh well, at least we have well in production, superior and also quite stylish Vityaz-M so overall Russian tram engineering is currently doing fine without "the chosen one". Still I hope UTM will come up with something competitive eventually.
>>5381>So are the transit networks still more or less directly state run, "unitary enterprise" and all?
The first post-USSR private tram line is to be launched next week in Saint-Petersburg. They are finishing the installation of stops, testing etc. now.
The rolling stock is Stadler B85600M assembled in Belarus.
Posting some more Eastern European rolling stock!
"Seated capacity: 30". Surely it's 1+2 seating arrangement configured for short trips with a lots of standees but still. Doesn't look a modern use case for rail based public transit.
Is anything worth saying about these "meme streetcars" that hasn't been said in /n/, or do we have some more cultured opinions here? Like is there a single system with "streetcar" in its name that's not a hopeless 2000s monorail, with real transit purpose and expansion plan even if they initially operate with 20 m vehicles. >>5399>You know, I think you do not quite get that 3-unit tram on rotational bogies should have smaller dynamical "footprint" than one long single-unit car.
Can't say I'm an expert plus there may be some language difficulties. I've learned to think tram loading gauges through three key figures: vehicle width, minimum turning radius and the minimum distance between the tracks at a curve of the said radius. These are closely related to the [b]maximum wheelbase lenght[/b] (lenght between bogie pivot points) of an old school bogie car or a Jacobs' bogie articulated car.
Something along the lines of:
sqrt(-4*((-D+W+S+2*(R+D))^2/4-(R+D)^2)) = L
Where D = distance between tracks, W = vehicle width, S = safety margin, R = curve radius = L wheelbase lenght.
Unit lenghts of modern off-center bogie constructions and even KT4 style suspended articulate vehicles are harder to conceptualize. I think one would need some sort of proper mode of the mechanical linkages in the vehicle, plus a model of different track geometries as well.
This baby had 17 seats and two person crew, because they had 1+1 seating arrangement.
Width 2.1, and as said, wheelbase lenght of 5.3. Because the distance between the tracks was only 2.5 m.
From my old home town, btw. The great what if amongst the foamers is would there still be trams around, if the tracks had been distanced to 3 m like Helsinki did after the war.
However, at the same time period (actually 10 years earlier), Helsinki had these "coffins" which were 1 m longer and had 6 m wheelbase with less narrowing at the ends, so in reality the loading gauges may have differed somewhat, like the outer tracks in curves were slightly further from each other than 2.5 m.
The above Turku cars couldn't even operate on one line (of the three in total) because they were "too big".
Both 2.5 m historical and current 3.0 m distance between the tracks is highly second hand knowledge. Might be the real minimum in double tracks curves is like 3.2 or even more to allow 2.4 m wide cars.
>>5404>And THIS is why it is quite surprising to hear it can do 16 meters.
I have to clarify this: it was just a number on some random news site. But I took that as some sort of typical Russian number. It's a bit eyebrown raising for me, as I've read about 15 m, 18 m, possibly 19 m, 21 m, 23 m and 25 m before in various places. Though, it may not be always clear if the radius told is the minimum structural or minimum desirable for lime tracks, or the one related to wheelbase lenght.
Kind of how 2.5 m wide vehicles, which is the Russian standard, are quite rare in the west, even if that's the most common bus body size here too. This is due the German BOStrab's influence, which specifies 2.65 m as the maximum road worthy vehicle width. 2.3 m is kind of 1930s standard, often upgraded to 2.4 m, though some new system systems are also built to 2.4 m.
Tampere by the way defines kind of optimistic 40 m as the curve radius on line tracks and 25 minimum structural in depots and such, but the 40 m in practise is then that "imaginary großraumwagen wheelbase radius", I suppose? Also the distance between the tracks is 3.35 m and vehicle width 2.65. Also standard gauge. Anyhow the project was made to be as compatible European specs as possible. To allow byuing off the shelf vehicles, though conveniently Transtech, the company Skoda bought that makes Artic, got it's first standard gauge and double ended reference customer.
I wonder if there's a last minute rush to upgrade the road law to allow 2.65 m wide vehicles when Tampere construction nears its end? Pic is kind of related; some spart person pointed out that the road law kind of implied trams should have center light only.
Pic related is from 1973, and it would seat 18 + 18 with 3 person crew. The first series articulated tram would also still have cashier for a while.
Boring boring trivia.
You know you do go on, I'm quite done here for a while.
Oh right! And also a few weeks ago Moscow got its quite anticipated (read: delayed for almost a year) first (which is in fact second, but first for its modern form pffff whatever, don't bother with it) stage of the Big Circle Line (aka the Third Interchange Contour), a 10.5-km line running from Moscow International Business Center (which is mildly western part of the city) to the north-east. Which is also - for now - an extension for 8A (Solntsevskaya) line, so technically this stretch service two lines at the same time, kinda like London's clusterfuck of metro lines or something similar to that. The stations are Delovoy Center (the new one), which is the terminal for Big Circle Line trains, Shelepikha, south of which the line (kind of) splits with two routes going to the Delovoy Center and Ramenki, Horoshyovo, CSKA and Petrovskiy park. And if you feel like your brain is melting now imagine how it feels for the regular metro passenger given that an average 1chan'er is about 25 times more intelligent and 40 times more observant than average passenger of Moscow metro. Dunno about Western people but IQ of the most Russians suddenly drop to such of a chicken as they go down the metro escalator.
Also sorry, I know I should've created the new 1520 thread, like, couple of weeks ago but really I had other things on my mind. Right when I (in a typical 1chan pace) finish with all news I saved for this thread, I'll start the 1520.
I may have been little unclear again. The standards in Helsinki are pretty unified, for example. 15m/"3m"/2.4m. But Europe-wise it's a clusterfuck, I suppose the positive side of communism/central planning was this sort of standardization.
Infact, one of the primary reasons why foamers nation wide hail the now approved extensions of Helsinki is that it would finally introduce a ~40 strong fleet of long, bidirection vehicles. The system has ossified to its current form pretty badly, operating as a kind of city center people mover using small bus sized rolling stock and it's pretty slow too. This would finally introduce "LRT" type of service and also ease the future expansion when the issue of where the cars would reverse isn't that big of a deal anymore. No need to find space for balloon loops.
Comparing to Moscow, by the way. It doesn't look that big on the map, until you look at the scale marker. Like the Moscow tram on the other hand is clearly having a totally different kind of role in the transit infrastructure, as a kind of feeder system to metro and local rail stations and doesn't reach all the way to the city center. Kind of same in the St Petersburg.
>Did I even mention that?
That there was a some sort of wye reversing going on at the bigger network, Lesnaya street?
Maybe..? I inquired you about various things about the Moscow and St Petersburg tram in the RDZ thread and we discussed about the disconnectedness of the various parts of the networks. I don't remember the specifics, but at that time the loop at the "Sokol square" was under construction in the google maps. I studied the area around that place for a reason or another. Maybe I mistook that to the Lesnaya place.
But, if the networks were re-connected, it would happen through Leningrad ave?
Interesting, give how little space there is and how it is quite directly above an existing metro line.>>5429
Is that a tram-train? 3000V or 25 kV?
>>5496>technically this stretch service two lines at the same time, kinda like London's clusterfuck of metro lines or something similar to that.
Stockholm t-bane level degenerate! Soon nothing but diesel generator fitted "hybrid" memebuses will prosper there!
>Also sorry, I know I should've created the new 1520 thread, like, couple of weeks ago but really I had other things on my mind.
The locomotion starts when the timetable has space, of course. In my sad existence on the other hand I'm limiting my compulsive avoidance behaviour to slow places like 1chan so constantly refreshing the frontpage doesn't do too much damage…>>5393>in my home city there are curves that don't even allow to have full sized left-side mirrors on the older cars
This is very common as is having them on a swing arm that extends out only when needed.
The city of El Paso recently expressed a desire to restore the Texas side streetcar service, and decided that the best way to do that and preserve a bit of their heritage was to use the cars stored at the airport. A contract was written with Brookville to fully restore six of them for the initial service.
Yesterday, the first car of the batch was delivered, and a streetcar sat on rails in El Paso for the first time in 44 years. 1506 was unloaded and moved to the shop and will probably begin break-in and training service shortly. When the line is completed, the route will be 4.8 miles (7.7 km) and will provide connection service to Amtrak's Sunset Limited/Texas Eagle, as well as stops at the Don Haskins event center (stadium/concert venue), and the University of Texas at El Paso.
Photo by Jose Marquez via Facebook.
>>5503>the way we tend to view public transit in the United States
Don't take this as an insult but, see the pic. I see no deviation from the normal here.
FOR STARTERS… Does that tramway, yes tramway, not some stinking meme streetcar, replace a bus line of, lets say, let's be generous, at least 15 minutes interval? If not, that's a gian red flag. >>5505
Righty'o, mate. Didn't think of that. You know, when someone says Russian tram factory test track, I think something more like the "Ust-Katav to Paranimo tramway".
This place: http://englishrussia.com/2014/02/15/metro-rail-tram-system-for-a-tiny-village-in-siberia/
Sorry. But, interestingly enough, the google maps car has been to the place and all I can say… that's an express trip to the Russia - not the country - Russia, the state of mind.
>>5500> as a kind of feeder system to metro and local rail stations and doesn't reach all the way to the city center.
Well mostly yes, although I wouldn't compare it to bus as the tram is usually more "mainline" service having an advantage of more capacity and speed due to many tracks being isolated from traffic, you could say tram in Moscow is more than a simple streetcar but still less than a full-fledged LRT. There is one line in the city center though and SPB has plenty of them.
> That there was a some sort of wye reversing going on at the bigger network, Lesnaya street?
I said, it was a reversing headshunt
. Why else would you think Moscow required the Tatra-based double-sided MTTA-2 trams working in back-to-back pairs for? Pic related, you can clearly see the doors on the "wrong" side, though here it is already separated and passed to Krasnopresnenskoe depot.
> But, if the networks were re-connected, it would happen through Leningrad ave?
Dude, it makes me really uncomfortable that you're putting it like it never gonna happen. Like you know something I don't. There was an official announcement on the very high level that until 2020 both Moscow tram networks will
be re-connected. It will be fully historically new route from Ostankino loop of the Central network through Timiryazevskaya and to the Dmitrovskaya loop (on the pic related) of the Krasnopresnenskaya (smaller) network, most likely with this routing, SEE THE LINK https://goo.gl/WW7nx9
What is more interesting it is planned as a compensation for the Moscow Monorail which should be disassembled by that time, which makes sense as its integration to the transport network is close to zero and the dedicated tram line would be like 500x more convenient mean of getting around the place.