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File: 1584947504930.jpg–(363.60KB, 1200x794, 269922.jpg)
So, how better to celebrate post #1520 than by a proper, official 1520 thread from monsieur Parovoz?

I mean I know there are a couple of 1520-ish threads already but hey, they don't start with the post 1520, RIGHT?

Everyone is welcome to ask even the stupidest or most obscure questions about Slav railways which come to mind, participate in occasional toxic shenanigans with your truly and in general have fun, as long as it's train related (duh) and politics-free. Obviously all stuff Slav, 1520 or 1524 is expected.

Will start off with the mighty EP20 dual-system 7200 kW Slav lad made by a well familiar to everybody here НЭВЗ works (in Rostov region), hauling a medium-sized double-decker I think towards Bryansk.
¨ No.1522
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Also I was a bit torn as to whether I should use this pic instead. The double-decker is inherently cooler, but here the landscape is much more picturesque and friendly as well as the train is longer.
You'll be the judges, should I've used this instead? Oh well, guess I've used both next to one another anyway :D
¨ No.1523
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Also by 11 cars being "medium sized" I mean that Russian double-deckers are a pretty popular service often reaching 15-16 and sometimes even 17 cars, coming in at quite hefty 1100-1150 tons - a perfect job for such a heavy-duty (not by literal weight of course, although, say, in the context of European 1435 mm network it is heavier than even EU's 6-axle freighters, but details, US public will be thoroughly unimpressed with both in terms of axle loads) passenger loco as EP20. Also in conjunction with it they look so menacing, for a passenger anyway.
¨ No.1524
VL86F (ВЛ86Ф) locomotive test run in Finland, May 1987–(YouTube)
For the 1524 I gonna recognize our Finnish friends, and treat our local Finnish buff in particular with some UNIMAGINABLY OBSCURE pieve of content.

BEHOLD, the most powerful locomotive VR has seen and probably will ever see. The one and only VL86F, the most powerful locomotive ever produced for the time (before outdone first by the Chinese HXD1 at 14400 kW peak and recently by the Russian 3ES5S at 16200 kW peak, the latter made by the very same factory as VL86F only this time with an all-Russian asynchronous traction drive, a dream which was coming true for well over 30 years for NEVZ), TESTED ON FINNISH RAILWAYS.
Why here? Because it had Finnish traction drive equipment, which could (and here was the surprize to me) peak at 13.9 MW, despite everyone is quoting that VL86F could make only 11.6.
Also I had no idea that thing was green at some point, perhaps to make it pass as a "humble" VL85, to not create a public disturbance, hehe. Whoever recorded and published this video is a saint. The only VL86F, both sections, was scrapped recently, because bureaucracy, and this is by far the best documental evidence of this milestone in electric locomotive design.
¨ No.1526
ngl that's kino as fuck
¨ No.1527
Are locomotive-hauled trains still the mainstay in Russia? Other than suburban elektrichkas?
It seems almost everywhere EMUs are becoming the norm, even here in Switzerland we held out quite a while but now even the long-distance trains are being made as EMUs (the latest one having been a complete fuckup by Bombardier btw), and though locomotive-pulled trains are still the workhorse, both regular and double-decker, they will be getting scarcer over time until they're gone in a few decades.
¨ No.1529
1585016160472.png–(852.41KB, 814x612, sv1.png)
>and treat our local Finnish buff in particular with some UNIMAGINABLY OBSCURE piece of content

Why thank you! I never knew VL86F was also tested here or that footage existed of the occasion!

A book was published in 2016 of it, actually. That's why I knew of it at all and certainly couldn't have cited it's class from memory. Apparently, the whole book is freely downloadable now, which I didn't know either:


So thanks for the second time.

...Didn't know "Sv1" ever went to Russia either.
¨ No.1530
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Found this picture in the book. This contraption was allegedly for journal bearing maintenance.
¨ No.1531
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>Are locomotive-hauled trains still the mainstay in Russia?

You're saying it as if it's an inherently obsolete thing one should avoid whenever possible? Think about it. EMUs are not much viable with travel times of over, say, 8 hours, and if you didn't notice most Russian long haul trains are way beyond 8 hours or 800 km of travel. In fact I have yet to see an EMU equipped with sleeping accommodations, and most Russian loco hauled trains by far are exactly that, overnight sleepers.

We're not talking necessarily Transsiberian here, after all this is kind of an exotics even for us, but most individual's trips are worth it within a full day of travel time, after which the convenience of the train ride becomes negligent in the prospect of losing more than one day to get somewhere, over the horrific inconvenience and fastness of a plane.

But yes, we do transfer many our shorter route intercity expresses to EMUs, all the way to 8 hours of travel time (although THESE EMUs have questionable comfort for even half that), them being mostly Lastochka trains from that old massive Russian purchase of 240 Siemens Desiro trains (granted, these are kind of just vaguely based on Desiro at this point, manufactured locally by Sinara group with 80-90% deep localization and received many modifications and improvements by Sinara engineers over the standard Desiro RUS, such as a Russian electronic control system which removed the Desiro RUS limitation of being only 5 or 5+5 cars) in various versions, like this ES2G on the pic.
But that decision, while in the trend, is not as weighted as one would think, and mostly have things to do with the financial burden the Lastochkas have become for RZD, but I explored this topic briefly some time ago.
¨ No.1532
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Granted, some of them new sleek loco haul double-deckers are daytime intercity expresses with <8 hrs. travel time, but do you really think it would be even remotely economically sound to satisfy the capacity of FOURTEEN TO FIFTEEN DOUBLE-DECKERS with some EMUs? Ok, you could in theory replace it with a 10+10 Lastochka double set, losing the sleeping accommodations in the process (not everyone thinks a daytime ride is not worth stretching your legs, even at a higher cost) but how much more expensive it would be with more cars, more electrical equipment, more length occupied in a yard, and let alone you will pretty much LOSE the flexibility of a loco haul train, which can and ARE often and easily reconfigured in depots to satisfy the relevant demand?..

You're reasoning WAY out of context here, what is Switzerland's and in general most EU's train services, and Russia's. That's about like asking why we don't use dem tiny light 4-axle dual-mode freight-passenger locos and instead have to haul these unwieldy 9000-tonne hulks of metal over the Transsiberian rather than just splitting them into tiny bite-sized little freighters. ECONOMIES OF SCALE mah dude.

404'd. Is it in English at least?

Also, Sv1 is this tiny cart on the pic in the next post? It's Finnish and was used in Russia?
¨ No.1533
>You're saying it as if it's an inherently obsolete thing one should avoid whenever possible?
No I didn't, I was just saying it because all over Europe and Asia EMUs are replacing locomotive hauled trains. I don't actually believe locomotive hauled trains are obsolete and should be avoided, quite the contrary.

>EMUs are not much viable with travel times of over, say, 8 hours
I don't really see how it would make a difference as far as distance or travel time goes. I've taken 9 hour (daytime) journeys in EMUs in Spain and they were comfortable enough.

>In fact I have yet to see an EMU equipped with sleeping accommodations

>You're reasoning WAY out of context here, what is Switzerland's and in general most EU's train services, and Russia's.
I never did any such thing, I asked a question and accompanied it with explaining what it's like in western Europe so as to establish a comparison. I never pretended to in any way equate the practical operations between w. Europe and Russia. You inferred all that because you wanted to and frankly I'm a bit offended over it.
¨ No.1534
Is this just a simple old livery/new livery thing between regular cars or do the old livery ones tend to be of certain class, like the ones with conductor cabin / luggage area / restaurant?

Sv1 is that yellow "3201", built on Dv12 frame and operated between 1980-1984. One of its purposes was to be a prototype freight-capable locomotive with inverter drives to lock that sweet eastern contract and possibly also other export contracts.

The tiny narrow gauge car was spotted in Ilovaisk, presumably in 1988.

Link isn't dead but subject to some weird base64 encoding hijinks. It's also in the video description for the interested. Sadly it's only Finnish and there aren't even that many good pictures (what's worse, there are PEOPLE blocking the view towards the TRAINS in most of them). As you surely know, railways used to be considered military sensitive location so no photographing by tourists.
¨ No.1535
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I wonder of the multiple unit thing is an artifact of wagon rotation. Like your typical municipally subsidized regional is 3 coaches. Those 3 need to go to scheduled maintenance ever so often, so they need to be on a route that passes a suitable depot to minimize downtime. Typically all at the same time, because that train will stay in the same configuration as long as it stays in the same place. This all results that effectively there being tiny 3 car unit trains roaming around the passenger network so it no longer makes sense to bother to think of them as individual coaches.

After all, the same thing happens in freight, hence permanently coupled pairs is a thing.
¨ No.1536
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>quite the contrary

Then why are you contributing to making this feel like an argument? I wasn't bickering with you, I was explaining the actual reasoning behind why Russia sees a more limited use (and not an absence of it!) of "long haul" EMUs and now you just plain stated you are offended. Bruh.

> I don't really see how it would make a difference as far as distance or travel time goes.

It makes a very simple difference in the fact that EMUs are NOT nearly as suitable for sleeping compartments as normal loco haul cars, by having distributed traction equipment with less space for "life support systems" with that, for example, not having enough WC/showers per car (from the experience of riding on Russian sleepers, standard 2 booths per car are NOT enough already sometimes).
I expected you mention some weird Japanese "recreational" MUs (although I did not expect something as mundane as this) but I am talking something a bit more mainstream. Also this thing, while pretty comfy, looks quite a bit more cramped than even Russian common-compartment cars.

And PLEASE do not compare "a little over 8 hours" to the "over 12 hours to over a full day trip". People prefer to use sleeper trains as SLEEPER TRAINS and at least as far as Russians go they don't really like sleeping seated. Ain't we some bunch o' fucking weirdos, eh?

But the main reason is of course economical with literally more equipment per each car, more maintenance required, different repair framework, also you seemed to ignore the BIG reason of reduced versatility (it's not quite as convenient for an operator to reconfigure an EMU and long haul trains are being constantly reconfigured by FPC in accordance to the real demand), but if that's not enough for you, you will be also often limited to the given train's electrical system and possibly only the electric routes (although RZD invented a weird but effective way of operating purely electric Lastochkas on diesel lines but still from an EMU standpoint it is yet another an unnecessary complication), some other corners you can easily cut using purely unpowered cars instead of self-propelled sets.
¨ No.1537
1585056820806.jpg–(0.96MB, 1400x900, 258595.jpg)
Then there's also a problem of the fact we have a well established domestic lineup of trailer stock, both double and single deck, for whatever configuration you can possibly desire, and developing the (purely unnecessary based on all that was said above) proper long haul EMUs which could actually functionally replace all these trailer variety, let alone double-deck ones, is yet another economic hurdle. It's not about whether you COULD make it, it's whether you SHOULD transfer loco haul trains to EMUs. RZD for all their shortcomings does know how to count their money and doing something "just because everybody does" is a surefire way of wasting them. Least they should do is to introduce push-pulls.

>You inferred all that because you wanted to

No, I inferred that because it LOOKED LIKE IT from the text. Apparently the text not always can convey the actual connotations behind it, shocking right? I'm not making it look like your fault of course, it's the fucking internet around here, but I think apart from complaining to me misinterpreting your message you should at least acknowledge the fact that I spent by now over an hour going into in-depth explanation for a total stranger on the internet which kinda redeems me being a little bit of an asshole.
Anyway, you wanted to know the reasons behind it? Here you go. If do you wanna actually argue about it, be my guest, but prepare to a chance of me being my typical squabbling asshole, LOL.

> Locomotive time is expensive, better to remove even the chance of shunting

Now that is kind of unwarranted. Or at least according to RZD, the R'n'D, the purchase, the maintenance of the way more expensive, way less configurable and overall less versatile EMU rolling stock (and AS I CANNOT STRESS ENOUGH apparently, we're talking theorhetical SPECIALIZED "sleeper" EMUs which aren't even a thing in by far most countries!!!) is more expensive than just some shunter time, especially given you need only one loco per multiple trains and you can shunt it all quite quickly if you want to. Especially given there are ways of optimizing this process.

>Is this just a simple old livery/new livery thing between regular cars or do the old livery ones tend to be of certain class, like the ones with conductor cabin / luggage area / restaurant?

A little bit of both. Sometimes you can see just old livery double-deckers tucked between new livery cars but in this >>1520 case this is a restaurant in a set of otherwise seating cars, apart from the last one being with compartments, but, through sheer luck, of matching livery (try to notice the other difference in appearance, as well as find the different car on this photo). And yes, FPC just realized that apparently you can mix the different types of double-deckers together, took them long enough! Now we only have to wait for them to figure out you can also include seating cars on the otherwise sleeper trains for the passengers who wanna conveniently take a shorter part of the route without overpaying, thus only increasing the numbers for their double-decker project.
¨ No.1540
ya ok I just stop posting so have fun alone in your thread you fag
¨ No.1542
Wow what a bitchy snowflake. Maybe you want me to aPoLoGiZe for, oh I don't know, spending more than an hour of my time THOROUGHLY AND METICULOUSLY EXPLAINING to you the exact thing you wanted me to explain and not licking your boots in the process? This ain't your Twitter page honey, first instead of fucking reading the answer to his question he gets oFfEnDEd by me misinterpreting the connotation of the message, the one which ultimately doesn't play a major role in the discussion and now he went completely batshit mad for me reminding him IT'S THE FUCKING INTERNET AROUND HERE and nobody here would act exactly as you want them to, obviously after he pulled another elaboration on already quite in-depth explanation from me, probably the one he didn't even pay attention to.
Which got me thinking... It's like with a gf who dumps ya because of something ridiculous, in retrospect you understand it was better that way becasue otherwise your brain would be blown with bitchieness and all kinds of attitude. If you, Barry, want everyone to BEHAVE (esp not just behave but behave the way YOU WANT) then maybe, possibly, you really do not belong not only in this thread but on imageboards in general?..

HOWEVER!!! As we are on an ANONYMOUS imageboard I will give Barry the benefit of the doubt. I have a couple of anons who would give me a stink eye here, so I can totally see this being an impostor (this happened here more than once) and that the REAL BARRY is a more sensible human being than I just assumed (wink-wink).
But if he's not, better off without him anyway. Hopefully at least the Finnish friend appreciated the in-depth explanation, originally meant for someone who asked for it yet hypocritically could never even appreciate it for what it is and not WHAT IT ISN'T.
¨ No.1563
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An exceptionally rare example of a train in the commercial branding in Russia.

There is a nice "historical" anecdote (of a few weeks old) about this train. This is an ED4MKM-AERO, a variant of the typical Russian ED4M series built for the Aeroexpress, a private operator providing express services between Moscow railway terminals and three its major airports. So, recently they were advertising tours to China on this train, and, suddenly, now they are advertizing... an online cinema. Huh.
¨ No.1565
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Also, I just realized there wasn't (properly) any freights yet. There is something in the image of an extremely powerful electric loco hauling a decently large freighter which will probably make an Americal railfan either jealous OR want to puke seeing this as heresy.
¨ No.1566
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¨ No.1577
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¨ No.1595
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Magnificent Russian freight electrics are always delight to see. The locos of these are like 6-7 of these...
¨ No.1596
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If you assume these are probably 1200 HP or 880 kW that's about 600-700 kW effective output on the wheels, so compared to the triple-section Granit like here it's already 19 (NINETEEN) of these. A single EP20 already would be like 10 of dem medium shunters. The power gap between the locomotives becomes astounding once you overcome the hurdle of always taking your energy source along with you.

But really, as year ago I said in a rant/explanation, the one which kinda sorta pissed Tex off, it's mainly about taking the per axle output and conveniently scaling it via the concept of modular sections.
¨ No.1597
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And if you take *THE MOST POWERFUL LOCO EVER BUILT IN HISTORY* (3ES5S, the one on this picture) then it's already 23 (TWENTY THREE) of these medium shunters.

There was a lovely Soviet kids' animation about the tropical animal characters hanging out and exploring the world, so they came up with using the Parrot to measure the Boa's length, because apparently that's what animals on a tropical island are most concerned about, and not stealing a ship while smiling and waving. So it has since become kinda the meme in Russia, "measuring things in parrots", as in some silly unscientific measurement or visualization, but not necessarily (yet often) a pointless one. So here on 1chan we henceforth gonna measure things in medium shunters :D
¨ No.1667
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>So here on 1chan we henceforth gonna measure things in medium shunters :D

Well Dv 12 is 1000kW nominal so it's not the weirdest metric derived unit - like WTS's a "kilopond", "calorie", "ton of refrigeration"etc... seen very reasonable. It also has 200kN nominal tractive effort, also still very reasonable.

As the electrification has progressed Vr has phased out all the various siderodder diesels (wankers!) and the have been left with this unitary fleet of MEDIUM DIESEL SHUNTERS. 80/125 km/h with mechanical switch that can be flipped only at standstill.
¨ No.1951
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A new "private" operator has arrived to the 5 foot network. Their business case will most likely be transfer traffic to Russia with RZD wagons.

It's the Estonian state's Operail with only two Turkish built GE PowerHaul PH37ACi locos, but what nests of power they are! 2750 kW, 427 kN continuous and 122 tonnes. They will be designated Dr20 ("Diesel, heavy, type 20").
¨ No.1952
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Other news; It's been really nice and warm!
¨ No.1953
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¨ No.1967
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> but what nests of power they are! 2750 kW, 427 kN continuous and 122 tonnes

Hi again. Well I mean that's kinda less powerful and lighter than the good ol' passenger TEP70(BS) from da Motharland. Also it doesn't come even close to another popular GE product for the 1520(4) mm gauge, the one you should be well aware of, right?
And what does heavy mean anyway in your context? Is it somewhat arbitrary or is it assigned after certain weight/axle load?
¨ No.1969
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And for that matter, 2750 kW is really close to the per-section output of the "ultimate workdonkey" 2TE25KM (3600 HP per 6-axle section). If these things will be constantly working in pairs like on your photo and hauling trains to and from Russia, it would've made all the sense in the world for this company to buy instead three 2TE25KMs. Sure they wouldn't haul just as lively, being, after all, on the somewhat outdated platform and just a tiiiiny bit less powerful, but it would be dirt cheap compared to any GE product and there's DA MOTHARLAAAAND as a destination, with a great experience in maintaining and repairing these things.
Not that they would prefer, or even be allowed, to buy anything from the aGgReSsOr CoUnTrY. But we're talking purely economically, not politically - there's a reason 2TE25KM with all its shortcomings is so hugely popular with RZD as well as smaller operators around the CIS.
¨ No.1970
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Well everything is relative. As stated, the workhorse of Vr is still the 1000 kW Dv12. Dr16 is 1500 kW, both can be tripled. Meanwhile Fennairails Dr18s are also only 1550 kW. These are indeed relatively powerful diesels to these corners of the world. I am aware that in the 'Murica! the standard for a diesel loco is 6000 yeehaw-hp.

>600 kN starting power, thats 3 medium shunters!
Also, 75 kg times 9.81 m/s^2 times 1 m/s is just the kind of bullshit unit I was taling about.

So anyway I find that talk about being reduced power and power starved and restrained in the other thread kind of cure when you still have 2 of those monsters at your disposal.

Nice to hear you haven't fallen as as victim of the global plague.
¨ No.1971
> I am aware that in the 'Murica! the standard for a diesel loco is 6000 yeehaw-hp.

4400, really. 6000 is more like an exception, as far as I am aware of.

> Nice to hear you haven't fallen as as victim of the global plague.

(!extreme cynicism alert!) Well, let's be real, statistically it is really hard to fall victim of this little plague unless you are living in the US or Brasil, maybe also UK if we're feeling generous (but note that even then it's hard if you take things seriously enough and just follow basic goddamn guidelines! This pandemic wouldn't have even anywhere near the effect is has if stupid humans were ACTUALLY GOOD AT FOLLOWING GUIDELINES). In Russia is over 0.6 million of cases registered throughout the pandemic, yes, but the mortality rate is just around puny 1.5%, which is considered top-notch when comparing how different healthcare systems came prepared. And there's perfectly good explanation to this number, OTHER THAN "it's all evil Russian propaganda and secrecy". Simply the fact that through the perk of bypassing the usual bureaucracy, which is opened usually for the more authoritarian countries, we sealed the borders with China and then with everyone WAAAAY before most other countries even started to discuss this matter, and perhaps by having good communication with Chinese started to prepare a little harder too (for example building COVID facilities in two weeks with the help of the army, by Chinese "technology", before we had the overall case number in the hundreds) - you could say Putin was lucky to see the writings on the wall (which will instantly spark another obvious conspiracy theory among more... inclined of us; also it's pretty funny to hear how our local liberals, now when it's undeniable we did overall better than most, now are saying Putin had nothing to do with it, it's the systems under him which worked well... yeeeeeeah, a bureaucracy whcih had bypassed itself, cool story bruh - and that's even ignoring the fact these very same people spent literally all the time before 2020 complaining how none of these systems are working properly unless intervened), and also mixed with the vastness of the country as well as the fact our population is quite less mobile than in EU countries explaining the fact that the "wave" is rolling really slowly through us, all that amounted to the fact that we never had a global shortage of bunks or equipment, by the time it was the worst for us there were something like 12000 bunks still empty and ready - an insane number. And also our authorities really like to brag about how much early tests they've been doing daily, I dunno, depending if you're inclined to believe them, that might've helped too. To be clear I haven't written this to brag how great Russia is and how well we did, we still had our fair share of fuckups and the population response to the crisis is just abhorrent, I've just provided a rational explanation to what many people with a certain agenda prefer to explain irrationally. Let's not start an argument over this because God knows what heck might break loose upon this tiny forum, considering how touchy the subject is.
¨ No.1993
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Fenniarail has 6 of these. Given they and Operail bet on just diesel all the way maybe the Americans were right after all and electrification doesn't justify the cost; the tack usage fees would be lower for electrics but they can still break even.

There are 9 of these in total but I'm not sure if all will come to Finland. Some may also go to Estonia / Latvia.

Okay... I think not many people have paid much attention to Russian response. Some media outlet poisoned the well a little though by publishing speculative pieces like "is this Putin's downfall???" Because of that some people may think that Russia's response has been worse than it had been, though frankly everything dwarfs against what's happening in the Americas.

Getting even more political, I must say it's a shame that Sweden got away with its strategy and we kind of overreacted though it was justified because of looming medical supply shortage (3 months reserve in normal conditions was used in weeks). Still, this shit will give so much ammo for the populists come the next election. "The left greens destroyed the economy!" will be heard a lot, no doubt. What a bummer this was in other respects too, if this hadn't happened maybe we could have gotten the "province and health care reform" finally hammered in, something which I'd rather would have liked to be done by a left-leaning government because the previous attempt would have been an unconstitutional blank check to health care multinationals with a provincial model to cement the center party's rural political machine. Now that all has vanished like smoke and we are one province border dispute or argument about peat away from an ultra-right wing government and or new elections. Sigh...
¨ No.1994
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The curfew has been lifted almost completely, now only gatherings above 500 people are prohibited. Also, the bars are open only to 2.00, whoop-de-doo. The motion to support the micro-breweries to finally allow the so called "out-selling rights" (which wineries already have) didn't go through - boo...

All this means though that clubs and associations now run their diesel rail buses, Jokioinen railway is open and "Old man Pete*" 1009 operates again (155 tonnes, 114 kN, 110 km/h but now restricted to 80).

*as in Pehr Svinhufvud
¨ No.1995
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>And what does heavy mean anyway in your context? Is it somewhat arbitrary or is it assigned after certain weight/axle load?

Uh, right. There was actually a question...

Uh, so traditionally engines have been classified to light, medium, and heavy and I have to look up if I find what they actually stand for anything nowadays. In "littera" (does any other railway stick to this kind of archaic system?) the engines are basically ether initial T - työkone/maintenance machine, D - diesel or S - sähkö/electric, so Sr1 is "Elelectric, heavy, model 1" and Tk7 is "Work machine, light, model 7" and it doesn't exactly mean "rail lorry" even if most of them are, but there are tamping machines and such in "T" also. Engines are classified by model but wagons are interchangeable and there are many models on the same littera, like almost all Tsar era passenger wagons are "E" and there are also many series for "single deck day wagon" Ei, both wooden and steel.

Oh dear, I', rambling.

It seems that "medium locomotive" is about 1000 kW so one can assume below is "light" and above is "heavy". In the steam era there definitely were some strict arbitrary number limits. It's connected to the littera but it had been revived twice but I don't have literary resources to check some vaunut.org discussion half remembered years ago.
¨ No.1998
Now that I've sobered up I found some real numbers: the ranger for a medium engine is currently 11.1-16 tonnes axle load.

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